This discussion took place on Dalrock’s post Never marrieds piling up part 2. Deti offers some good advice on marriage, the “facts of married life” and what should be common sense.
My position [on marriage] is this: You make a choice, you stick with it. Man or woman. But a lot of women don’t want to make hard choices, and then they don’t want to live with the good or bad consequences that flow from them. A lot of men are figuring this out.
I got married 16 years ago with no red pill. To make a very long story short, I didn’t make the best choice in a wife. I didn’t do the best job of vetting. I probably married too early and there were things Mrs. Deti didn’t tell me about before we married. Had I to do this again, I probably wouldn’t. I’ve been given some lemons and am doing the best I can to make lemonade with them. That’s life, really. I made hard choices. I’m doing my best to live with them and so is Mrs. Deti. FeministHater is partly right. I’m not so much lucky, it is that Mrs. Deti and I are CHOOSING to make the best of the consequences of hard choices we made.
Most women are shielded from making hard choices. And when they do make hard choices, most women are then shielded from the adverse consequences of those choices. The way I have made this work with Mrs. Deti is simply by requiring her to make her choices and then requiring her to walk those choices all the way out, good and bad.
But this is life, really. You choose to be a teacher over an engineer? You will work long thankless hours for low pay. You choose to be a lawyer over an actor? You will work long hours, the pay is good, and you get glory, but it’s drudgery and scut work much of the time.
Marriage is no different. Cupcake wants to marry F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer? Fine. He’ll bang you till you can’t walk. Fun, fun fun, excitement, drama and intrigue. It’ll be nonstop tingles, honey — until he cheats on you with the groupie with the tight abs and the silicone tits. And that’s just the one you know about. You’ll be poor, because F**kbuddy is a shitty provider, so you’ll always have to work. Also, if you have kids with him, he’ll always be part of your life when the inevitable divorce happens.
You want to marry Ernie Engineer? Fine. He’ll love you and you’ll have a couple of kids by him. It will be boring, mundane, routine. He’s not as much fun as F**kbuddy, but Ernie comes home every night and does his one chore, giving the kids baths. He takes you on your week vacation somewhere. After your second one is born you don’t have to work because Ernie’s earning more at work so you can be a SAHM. You can’t afford a maid or a nanny, but Ernie is working from 7 to 7 every day and is tired when he gets home. So you will have to do 90% of the housework. You will need to run the house. You must do all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, dusting, ironing, laundry and picking up. If you don’t know how to do those things, you will need to learn how. Ernie’s also not as good looking or as drama filled as F**kbuddy. The sex isn’t as good as with F**kbuddy. But Ernie loves you, and he stays with you, and he provides for you and the kids.
The problem is that women want F**kbuddy to have Ernie’s work ethic; or Ernie to have F**kbuddy’s long c*ck and I-don’t-give-a-shit attitude. But you’ll have to make your hard choice, and learn to live with it.
A couple of observations, FWIW:
1. A lot of what you read here and elsewhere in the manosphere is justified venting, outrage and frustration over the current state of marriage and relationships in the US, and the dire shortage of marriageable women. A lot of people have seen this coming for a long time; it’s here, and it’s not improving. If anything, it’s worsening. There are many, many causes for this which I won’t go into here. But the effects are devastating:
- a. Legions of young men with no societally sanctioned sexual outlet. They can’t even get a date, much less get a woman to marry them. They are at the nadir of their sexual market values, and they live in a romantic and sexual desert. I remember those days clearly. They were EXQUISITELY painful. I cannot even tell you just how painful they were, and I don’t think women can come close to relating to the level of pain that kind of rejection and deprivation inflicts on a man. And I can tell you this — If this society doesn’t get a handle on it, we will be looking at collapse on a scale we’ve never seen before. For now the lid is on it, through anesthetizing such men with online porn and video games, and minimum wage cubicle jobs that pay them just enough to cover the rent and their hobbies. That die may already have been cast. I fear we’re headed to complete collapse and nothing we can do will stop it, frankly. I think we’re headed there because these legions of men have nothing to invest in, no reason to improve, and literally nothing to live for other than getting drunk, fapping, and reaching the next level on Call of Duty 4. That scares the hell out of people like me.
- b. Slutty, vapid, self-absorbed women who live for their Louis Vuitton handbags and truly don’t get how f**king 20 or more douchebags is detrimental. (One wonders how if they truly don’t get that, then why do they lie about it? Why not advertise it and wear it like a badge of honor?) [Deti expands on the detriments of sluthood here]These women are literally destroying their MMV with every hookup and they act as though they don’t give a shit. Moreover, they are thoroughly masculinized, adopting the worst behaviors of men. Then these entitled bitches stand around wailing and whining about “where are all the good men” and truly blinkered about why some beta provider won’t offer a ring and a date on bended knee.
2. By necessity, marriage has become increasingly a risk-benefit analysis and a task in risk management. Yes, marriage has great rewards for men: a helpmate, regular sex, propulsion of your genes and heritage into the future, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of belonging in your community and your society. But those rewards require great investment and commitment from men. They require enormous outlays of work, time, sweat, and money from men. And those rewards were most likely to be extended when society protected men’s investment and commitment.
Our society no longer protects men’s investment and commitment in his marriage. Once he marries, he is not protected, but rather EXPOSED to great risk. His society no longer gives him any assurances or protections.
Yes, his risk might pay off. Yes, he might reap great rewards from marriage. But what if he is wrong? What if she simply decides she does not want him or love him anymore? What if something goes wrong? A reversal of fortune, a job loss, a devastating injury, a medical problem, another more alpha man she finds more attractive whom she decides to cheat with in a moment of female weakness?
And even if he is not wrong, he must work and work to be alpha enough for his wife. He must prevent her from getting unhaaaappy. If he cannot do that, and she stays with him, she will be miserable. She will make him and their children miserable.
The stakes are incredibly high. This is the single greatest risk he can ever take. If he makes the wrong call on this, he will lose everything he spent years working for. He will lose most of his money. He will lose his home. He will lose his children. And there will be nothing he can do to stop it, control it, or mitigate the damage.
Everything he has, everything he owns, everything he spent a lifetime working for and earning, the futures of his children, all of it — is riding on a woman’s haaaaappiness, tingles, and feelings of security.
And so, more and more men are looking carefully at it and saying — ” No. That deal isn’t attractive to me. The risk is too great. The possible rewards are simply not worth that level of risk.”
I have a question for the married men. On balance, would you say that the benefits have outweighed the risks for you personally with respect to marriage? Have the rewards been worth the hassle?I have a question for the married men. On balance, would you say that the benefits have outweighed the risks for you personally with respect to marriage? Have the rewards been worth the hassle?
The answers will depend on the men answering and their experiences.
For me: The benefits have outweighed the risks personally and the rewards worth the hassle, but not by much. My wife and I recently have been through a hard, long slog that has tested our marriage hard (not adultery – had that been the case she would simply have been auto-dumped. Adultery gets the automatic kick-to-the-curb.) I had to make some very, very hard choices and in the end it came down to reasoning back to biblical principles and making hard risk benefit analyses based on our personal situation. Our marriage won’t be the same after this.
I can tell you this: If I had it to do over again, I probably wouldn’t. If I ever find myself single again, I’ll never marry again. I won’t recommend marriage to any man unless he wants children, and even then, I would advise him to consider strongly whether he really wants children.
Deti, how can you cay the benefits outweigh the risks given your final paragraph?
Simple risk benefit analysis again. Decisions on whether to marry or not, or whether to remain married or not, are not made in a vacuum. They are based on guiding first principles, known facts, current situation and surrounding circumstances, history looking backward, and projections going forward. You take all of that, consider it, pray even, and then reach a decision. Overall, the benefits of remaining married outweigh the risks given my personal situation.
And the risks are not just those to me, either. I have to consider the risks to my children, for whom I am responsible — not just to feed and clothe them; but to educate them, instruct them, and prepare them for lives in a world I understand far better than does their mother. In many ways my children are at far greater risk than I. It is my responsibility to reduce and manage those risks to them as best I can. I can do that much better living with them than I can not living with them.